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 Any non-track runners that are really fast?
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therunnerdude

40 Posts

Posted - December 09 2012 :  20:07:54  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by ghost of platter
I know what Platt thinks:
When you look at the pack and tell them they all could be as great as you if they had the same work ethic that you have, well kid, that is about as egotistical as you can be.


I know it's cute to talk in the third person and put words in my mouth, but your obviously not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying I'm great. I AM saying that I have good work ethic.

quote:
Training to race is not hard, not painful. And anyone that thinks typical racing is painful has not reached their potential, not even close.


This is a really nice Zen version of running, buuuuuut it's pretty full of crap. If you think that training is not painful, you're running BELOW your potential.

quote:
When you convince yourself that standard training and racing is painful, and that *your* mindset and dedication is "a virtue of uncommon valor", you have set-up yourself for failure. Because when those voices come to you, (we all know them) and you look over to the guy or gal racing right next to you and he ain't slowin' down yet, then your sincere understanding of who you are will rise to the surface: you are just a regular kid who has a good strength to weight ratio and a genetically provided cardio-vascular system that is in the 90th percentile, And right next to you is someone just...like...you! But you ain't no bad-ass warrior, and you know it. At that point your racing mentality is crushed, you are done. Unraveled by your own sincerity throwing down the trump card on your ego.


It's not uncommon valor. It's pretty common valor among anybody who can run under 18. Running under 18 is not fast for a male under 40. Your little assessment of racing is way way off. When I look at someone running next to me, looking smooth, I feel my training, and use it.

quote:
If I were you I would view the landscape with complete sincerity. Most people do not have your genetics. Fun runs and Turkey trots are populated with just regular folk with cardio-vascular systems within the standard deviation. (Meaning they could run 100 mile weeks and never approach sub 6 minute miles for 5 miles, 3 miles or maybe even 1.


Wrong. I don't know where this idea of "regular" cardio-vascular systems is coming from. Sure, you might need greater than normal aerobic capability to break 16, or 15, or 14 minutes for the 5k. Buuuuut 18 is something completely different. Anyone can do it, given the training. And at that point, all that matters is the work ethic.

quote:
Your race is not against them; your race is against your peers. (I am assuming you are a college kid racing that type of competition). When you race that type of competition you better lose the "I work hard ego" They all work hard, they all are gifted. (It is easy to work when you have a gift.) The uncommon trait that many of the winners have is that they have learned the skill of concentration. They have no ego, they have no fear.


The "I work hard" mentality is not an ego. It is a reality. Yeah, there are gifted people who can run 17 flat without training. I'm not one of them. It is not easy to work when you have a gift. I've known many extremely gifted athletes who don't want to work hard. And no ego? No fear? Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Painfully wrong.

Your Zen approach to running is complete BS when applied to competition. And it's also completely ignorant to whine about "gifted" athletes being faster, when in reality, they're just working harder. All the platitudes about winning mean jack squat if you're not training painfully to make them a reality.

run like you mean it.
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DMRuns85

564 Posts

Posted - December 10 2012 :  06:32:18  Show Profile
@therunnerdude

I'll pretty much agree with you on every point, except that faster guys are just faster because they are working harder than you, not talent. I am not one of those talented guys and I have to work my butt off as much as time allows (I do work full time, coach, train, and try to have a life outside of work and running) to just break 16 minutes for a 5k and run sub-1:10/2:30. I have to grind out pretty much every workout to get to this point. Rarely, if ever, do I finish a workout and say "Boy that was a piece of cake". Most of the time it's more like "Thank God I got through that one on pace".

There are plenty of guys out there who can run what I do for these distances off of not too much work, period. Whether it's genetics and a better aerobic system or a higher pain tolerance. Yes GOP, running hurts like hell, even workouts and especially at the shorter-mid range distance events.

Got endorphins?
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lkizz

1001 Posts

Posted - December 10 2012 :  10:42:44  Show Profile
what a great run I just had! considerably faster than yesterdays run and a lot less painful .. how could that be if pain is directly proportional to the level of exertion?

Lkizz (wanna be Zen BS Master)

@runnerdude: I suppose you think poor people are such because they are lazy?
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therunnerdude

40 Posts

Posted - December 10 2012 :  10:53:39  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by lkizz

what a great run I just had! considerably faster than yesterdays run and a lot less painful .. how could that be if pain is directly proportional to the level of exertion?

@runnerdude: I suppose you think poor people are such because they are lazy?



Think a little before you type. Nobody ever said that about pain. And if you have to ask, you just don't get it. Apples and oranges. I hope you weren't asking that question seriously.

@DMR I guess that's true to a point. The people who I've known who are as fast as you are all hard workers in my experience though. Nice times.



run like you mean it.
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lkizz

1001 Posts

Posted - December 10 2012 :  15:38:17  Show Profile
quote:
Think a little before you type.

Thanks, that's good advice.

quote:
Nobody ever said that about pain.

This is what you (and others) implied, the harder you exert yourself, more pain you experience, if not, what is causing your pain?

quote:
And if you have to ask, you just don't get it.

Now that's funny. How else does one gain understanding?

quote:
Apples and oranges. I hope you weren't asking that question seriously.

Dead serious, dude. Why? I'm sugesting - that free will isn't quite as 'free' as you make it sound.





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therunnerdude

40 Posts

Posted - December 10 2012 :  17:32:20  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by lkizz
This is what you (and others) implied, the harder you exert yourself, more pain you experience, if not, what is causing your pain?


Yep, you don't get it. If you weren't being deliberately obtuse, you might get it. Runs can be fast but easy. That's the whole point of marathon or tempo pace. Hypothetical example. Thrash a great interval workout, feel like crap the next day on your recovery run. The third day, you run a marathon pace run, and it feels easier than your recover run, and you go faster. IT'S MAGIC. Or just basic physiology. But hey, it was apparently confusing you, so I thought I'd clear it up.

quote:
Now that's funny. How else does one gain understanding?


By not being deliberately obtuse.

quote:
Dead serious, dude. Why? I'm sugesting - that free will isn't quite as 'free' as you make it sound.


Aaaand that's where you're trying to derail any meaningful argument. Free will vs. determinism in a training argument? I mean, philosophers have debated that crap for thousands of years. I doubt I'll add anything important to the discussion, and even if I do, you probably will willfully misunderstand it. Yes, it's true we live in a physical universe, and therefore our actions are determined by physical laws. But there is the realm of the mind, Kant would tell us, and that is where we can be free. In other words, work hard.

run like you mean it.
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plpjap

129 Posts

Posted - December 10 2012 :  18:22:01  Show Profile
Pacpie - You say you love running and have been at it since April. Congratulations and welcome to the running community. Running is a great way to lose weight and stay in shape. You'll make many friends also. The main thing you want to strive for is to keep it fun while still trying to be the best you can be. I'm one of the old farts still at it at age 64. My best 5K last year was 23:10 on about 20 miles a week....not fast at all but age-graded it equals 18:09. I run about 6 days a week....a couple days hard. I hate the track but I do speed work....just fartleg style on the roads. Take what I say with a grain of salt because every one of the runners in a race is different. What works for one guy (or gal) may not work for you. Back decades ago, most of the races were 10K's ...hardly any 5k's. Check this old 10K from 1978 that was posted on this site a while back. It was one of the biggest in the area at the time and had 605 finishers -

http://www.buffalorunners.com/results/197x/FFF78.htm

See the guy in 34th place...that's yours truly a few months shy of 30. The time of 34:55 would equate to two 5k's back to back of 17:28 or so. I don't think I ever ran more than 30 - 35 miles in a week and never more than 2 hard days a week. The guy who finished 6th in 32:27 was an "old runner" we all admired...Ralph Zimmerman (who is in the Buffalo Runners Hall of Fame)....and he hadn't turned 40 yet. Yes...that was "old" back then. If you notice, out of 605 runners, 19 men were over 50 years old....only 2 over 60..... and only 18 women were 30 or over....yep....30 or over. My point is, if you love running and want to still be doing this in your 50's, 60's and older, you will have to keep it fun or you will burn out, get injured, lose interest, ect. Even though these guys on this forum are arguing among themselves, they all have good points. YOU have to experiment with different training methods and ideas to see what works for YOU. Not saying every single run will be fun...some days will be hard and hurt...but if you make MOST days enjoyable, maybe you will be around in your "old fart" days. I do believe you can competitive and be the best you can be and still have fun doing it. My next race will be Penguin Run on Jan 27th...if you see an old gray haired guy with a red "Nike" sweat-top, come introduce yourself. Good luck

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DMRuns85

564 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  08:27:06  Show Profile
quote:
DMR, you should take some pressure off of your pace and track workout goals. Almost all great runners stay within themselves (despite the rumors of superior pain tolerance).

Actually that is one thing my coach and I put much attention on, especially on the easy days. I was just saying that there are a lot of workouts where I am "walking the line" and that I can run the pace for as long as you like, but I am in a lot of "pain" or "discomfort" or whatever you want to call it. To me in racing and training I feel both.
quote:
This is what you (and others) implied, the harder you exert yourself, more pain you experience, if not, what is causing your pain?

A wise man once told me that it hurts the same no matter how slow you go, so you might as well run faster. To me this is a true statement unless you are comparing people who are jogging/running compare to a race effort, whatever that may be for them.

Got endorphins?
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therunnerdude

40 Posts

Posted - December 12 2012 :  12:28:00  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by ghost of platter



I looked it up:
Average male 20-29 VO2m is 38-43



Many numbers, few sources. I'd love to see the actual data that this is being gleaned from (assuming, of course, that you're not just Googling and examining the first link that you see, which it definitely looked like). Add to that, VO2max is not the only factor in running performance. Aerobic threshold, lactate threshold, economy, efficiency, weight, diet, sleep...



run like you mean it.
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therunnerdude

40 Posts

Posted - December 12 2012 :  17:35:10  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by ghost of platter

Platt is the source.



Ah, so you did just grab it from the first website you found. I thought so. Good to know.

run like you mean it.
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mcgoo

374 Posts

Posted - December 13 2012 :  08:19:12  Show Profile
This was a very good thread and the epitome of this forum, until runnerdude and platt turned it into a personal pissing contest. Enough already you two....
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lkizz

1001 Posts

Posted - December 13 2012 :  10:17:44  Show Profile
agreed, but boys will be boys.

I'm happy to see no one resorted to name calling or character defamation.

(and yes I think that Free will vs. determinism in a training argument is relevant).
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therunnerdude

40 Posts

Posted - December 13 2012 :  11:11:11  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by lkizz

agreed, but boys will be boys.

I'm happy to see no one resorted to name calling or character defamation.

(and yes I think that Free will vs. determinism in a training argument is relevant).



Yeah, I'm really glad to see no one is name calling. Especially not the person who is happy to see that no one is name calling. If you really think it's a relevant argument, then why didn't you reply to my last post? Or was it really that painful to get called out on being deliberately and inflammatorily obtuse?

@mcgoo I'm sorry.

@platt Never mind, I guess you don't want to discuss this seriously.

run like you mean it.
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mcgoo

374 Posts

Posted - December 13 2012 :  13:55:04  Show Profile
GOP,
I know you (although I'm pretty sure you don't know me) and your roots (Edinboro and the legendary Coach Watts). I don't dispute your running/training knowledge at all. In fact, I would agree with you (and many) that you have most likely dispensed more quality training info on this forum that anyone I have read here (sorry Marty and JF!) and I have been reading since the forum started. I guess I should have clarified my comment to read that I can't believe you're taking the bait here from runnerdude. He's obviously got it out for you and just like my teenagers, must have the last word, even if it is nonsensical.

Runnerdude,
I believe I coached one of your high school (SF?) coaches. I'm glad he doesn't read this forum or he'd be embarrassed at some of your irrelevant personal attacks. Keep it to running and training and you might even learn something in the process. I know you're a very smart guy. Start acting like it.

Mcgoo
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Jan J.

315 Posts

Posted - December 13 2012 :  21:30:51  Show Profile
Platt, baby:

"Just say it ain't so!"

And, guess what - no need to have done so: your posts were both appropriate, and helpful.

Jan J.
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therunnerdude

40 Posts

Posted - December 14 2012 :  14:24:37  Show Profile
Irrelevant personal attacks? If you would point them out, I would be grateful. If you read the thread, you'll discover exactly who the "irrelevant personal attacks" originated from.

I don't have it out for anyone. I stand by everything I said. Just because you're older than I am doesn't mean you're right.

When an old and distinguished person speaks to you, listen to him carefully and with respect -- but do not believe him. Never put your trust into anything but your own intellect. Your elder, no matter whether he has gray hair or has lost his hair, no matter whether he is a Nobel laureate -- may be wrong. The world progresses, year by year, century by century, as the members of the younger generation find out what was wrong among the things that their elders said. So you must always be skeptical -- always think for yourself. (Linus Pauling)

run like you mean it.
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