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 Any non-track runners that are really fast?
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JR

237 Posts

Posted - December 06 2012 :  16:53:56  Show Profile
I agree with JF. You certainly can start running post-college and can post impressive times, but you will never know your true potential or what your potential could have been unless you have paid the price on the track. That is not a knock on people who did not run in HS/College and I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's my opinion for what it's worth.
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pearman

22 Posts

Posted - December 06 2012 :  23:24:38  Show Profile
Track work does help makes things more precise and you know how fast you are running that's the benefit of the track. One tends to think of the track as speed work, but I believe it is pacework.....
Speed work is the really fast stuff....Ex. 1 minute up a steep hill X 6 with 5 minutes rest recovery, this way you're recruiting the fast twitch muscles....the heart rate is at its highest going uphill....3 weeks of hill work then hit the track and you will notice you're much faster...I like to do 3 weeks hills(once a week) 3 weeks track(twice a week) and keep going back thru the cycle :)
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DMRuns85

564 Posts

Posted - December 07 2012 :  07:41:47  Show Profile
Telling someone that they have to hammer out workouts on a track just to improve their 5k is a very generic statement. Especially when the following apply:

1. They have likely never done any interval training ever.
2. They likely have no real base or mileage under them.
3. They are in their 30s and a newer runner.
4. They run in the 20s for 5k. It's not like they are trying to jump down and run 16 minute 5ks or faster just yet. Much can be gained by simply just running and having more structure.
5. They likely have no concept of what a training plan or workout should look like.

JF said it himself, he has been running in the 18s with three years of no workouts. Heck, I run in the 15s with months of just straight mileage. We can do this because the years of BASE FITNESS that we have. Before starting interval training you need to build a solid base. Simply jumping on the track and running fast/hard will simply get you hurt when you are unprepared and frankly no longer in high school or your early 20s.

To me after a few months of mileage building starting some fartlek and tempo work is the next logical step.

I do agree with JF, racing a 5k is NEVER fun.

Got endorphins?
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JF

2688 Posts

Posted - December 07 2012 :  12:14:42  Show Profile
NEVER say NEVER...shame on me.

DM----you answered two questions. If I was doing speedwork, my guess is that I could run 17:30, and you could run 14:30

But, you're right about years of base miles. I started running in 1983 and have never really taken extended time off----never more than 8 weeks at one time. I might have stretches where I only ran 2 or 3 times per week, but I have never really shut it down except for a few injuries. There was one that shut me down for 8 straight weeks and then I had a few nagging things for a couple of weeks.

So, yes, guile has to count for something. There are guys I know that run 40 miles per week and have been doing do for years, but they run 20:45 for 5K. That's an example of guile, I guess.

I've been lucky. I've been able to run for 30 years and more importantly. I have been able to do it on my terms.


XXIV
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JF

2688 Posts

Posted - December 07 2012 :  12:16:48  Show Profile
Serious question:
He would be interested to learn what you two discovered that makes it "NEVER fun." Can and will you elaborate?


The race hurt, but after I saw 18:06, it was fun. I guess there were parts during the race that were sort of fun. And, competing is fun.

XXIV
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pacpie

18 Posts

Posted - December 07 2012 :  14:05:09  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by JF

I haven't done real track work in about three years and I only run three miles per day six days per week, although I did throw in a 4 miler a couple Sundays ago.

I do try to run the 3 milers "fast," and do throw in some 30 second surges once in a while.

I did manage an 18:06 at our Turkey Trot this. Not bad, not great, I suppose, but I "trained" to run 18:30, so I guess I did enough turnover to accomplish this modest goal.

LSD (long, slow distance) is a good recipe for fitness, but as a friend of mine once said, "long slow distance makes for a long, slow runner. To run a good 5K, you have to go out faster and be in more oxygen debt than a 5 miler or 10K. In many ways, the 5K hurts more.

For me, going out in 6:00 is not that hard, but to run near 18:00, you have to average 5:48. I went out at the trot in 5:46 and was really hurting, but I hung in there. If I had gone out on 6:00, I would have felt better, but come home in 18:40 to 18:50.

The point is you have to train your body to run faster mile pace. My only problem with the long distance racing crowd is that many hate 5Ks, and they often view 5K runners as bottom feeders. You notice all the magnets for cars say 26.2 and 13.1----where are the 5K ones? The reason they hate 5Ks is that they spend more time in the "hurt box," in a 5K than they do in their 15K when they can set comfortable spilts/fractions. They run good times but it feels good while doing the run.

There's not much fun when you race a 5K, and I still think the toughest race I ever did was the 1500/Mile because it just hurt the whole way----4 minutes of pure agony. In contrast, I loved running the 10,000 in college because I could really get into a good running rhythm.

So, running fast requires training fast whether you use the track or not.....but remember....

"The track does not lie."

XXIV



Loved reading this. Thanks for your feedback. Congrats on the good number for the Trot! This is kind of what I've read around a few different places so it's good to hear from someone with your experience. And I totally agree about the 5K vs other distances part. I LOVE running 5Ks (for whatever reason) and take a lot of pride in it. Too bad it's not as respected as the longer distances.

quote:
Originally posted by DMRuns85

Telling someone that they have to hammer out workouts on a track just to improve their 5k is a very generic statement. Especially when the following apply:

1. They have likely never done any interval training ever.
2. They likely have no real base or mileage under them.
3. They are in their 30s and a newer runner.
4. They run in the 20s for 5k. It's not like they are trying to jump down and run 16 minute 5ks or faster just yet. Much can be gained by simply just running and having more structure.
5. They likely have no concept of what a training plan or workout should look like.

Got endorphins?



I have to correct you here. 1) I have done some interval training/track work this Summer. I noticed my biggest gains after these intense sessions. 2) I don't have years of mileage under me but I did a half-marathon a couple months ago and put a lot of miles in leading up to it. But I understand your point here. 3) I JUST turned 30 and consider myself to be in pretty good shape (5'11, 155lbs), so I'm not an old guy just yet. 4) Fair enough. 5) I did follow a training plan for the half-marathon I did a few months ago.

I appreciate all the feedback. I love reading all of your stories. Running is hard. Anyone who just picks it up and manages to run near 20 minute 5Ks or under, is damn impressive to me. Maybe track guy won't be as impressed but that's quite the feat, if you ask me.

On that note, I finally treated myself to a running watch and hope to continue my progression as a runner. Very excited about getting it!
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lkizz

1001 Posts

Posted - December 07 2012 :  14:09:40  Show Profile
You boneheads talk as if anybody who works hard can run in the 17s overlooking the most obvious constraint - your biological makeup. Look at the Linda Yalem 5k only 1.8 percent got below 18 minutes and there were quite a few 'track' runners there Ö so this means the 1000 or so runners above 18 are slackers?
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techshlepy

709 Posts

Posted - December 07 2012 :  16:01:25  Show Profile
...lkizz...!!!...commence the debate on...what is fast...what is slow...who trains hard...who is a slacker...mcdonalds or burger king...thanks alot...bonehead...




WELCOME TO THE NEXT PHASE OF RUNNING...




...oh...and before I forget...lkizz...I apologize in advance for commenting...on your comment...





WAR LUVAMAN





EVOLVE...EVOVE...LVOVE...LOVE...PEACE
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therunnerdude

40 Posts

Posted - December 07 2012 :  18:13:28  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by lkizz

You boneheads talk as if anybody who works hard can run in the 17s overlooking the most obvious constraint - your biological makeup. Look at the Linda Yalem 5k only 1.8 percent got below 18 minutes and there were quite a few 'track' runners there Ö so this means the 1000 or so runners above 18 are slackers?



Yep, if they are male and under the age of 40. This doesn't mean that everyone will, because a a lot of people just don't like to work hard. Conversely, a lot of older people can break 18 because they work hard.

run like you mean it.
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Occhino

907 Posts

Posted - December 08 2012 :  10:37:42  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by JF



LSD (long, slow distance) is a good recipe for fitness, but as a friend of mine once said, "long slow distance makes for a long, slow runner. To run a good 5K, you have to go out faster and be in more oxygen debt than a 5 miler or 10K. In many ways, the 5K hurts more.



XXIV

Very interesting......But I disagree.



Pacpie- Never ran till I hit 29, And the first 5 or 6 years were my best, I had "The Eye of the Tiger" didn't know anything about the sport of running. I just ran no watch,no fancy sneakers,infact I even ran a few races in high top Converse, no track,books, or high school or college coach. Running raw was the BEST, I had some of my best times then, broke 17;00 twice, have ran a few in the 17s and even ran a few marathons sub 3 not knowing a dam thing.Some day I will dig out my shoe boxes of tags and count them to see how many races I have ran along the way.

Just Run and have fun with it, you will learn along the way.

Cinnotti- Seems like you would like to finish what we started. Just send me the time and place and we can discuss "The Next Phase of Running".

Occhino.


Speed Kills!!!!


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OldGermanRunner

224 Posts

Posted - December 08 2012 :  11:36:29  Show Profile
I did not start running until the age of 41. I had played hockey until the age of 16. I was not very active for the next 25 years. I started out being able to run 24-25 min 5K's with little or no training. When I started serious training at the age of 43, is when the effort of the training paid off. By 44 I was running sub 19. I have had one serious injury since then (I had a stress fracture in the calcaenus which was not due to running). I did have surgery as well to correct a genetic problem (haglunds deformity). This caused me to take over 3 months off from running. But because of the base training I had over the past 2-3 years, my return to running was much easier and I did not have long to wait to return to the times I had been running. (I did have my achilles cut vertically so recovery took a while.) I do cross train with swimming and biking. This year I finally started running "real long runs" (for me). I also tried to make a stabdard of running only 4-5 days a week (preferrably 4) and run in the 35-45 miles. The 3 days off were just from running as I did some other cardio workouts (i.e. swimming, biking). I do not consider myself "fast" but have been relatively pleased with the results. I still have yet to break the 6 min/mile for a 5K race (overall). I see this as 2 issues mental and weight. I am 6'2" and average 188 pounds. I am going to put effort into dropping 10 pounds and learn to push trough the "pain" of getting faster. I would also expect that the training needs a little more refinement. For my age (47-48) I do well at a road race (18:44 this year) but I know there is more and have not yet tapped into the bottom of the well. I personally do not like track work. It hurts my legs to run the turns. So I will probably do 100 meter sprints and jog the turns if I run track workouts anymore. I do simulate track workouts on the road (no frequent turns at speed). Hopefully this gives you a hope that an old fart like me can run decent times. I have found that the competition gets pretty fierce in the 40-60 age range.

OGR

"People do it everyday, they talk to themselves... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage I have, to just run with it."

See you around at the races.
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therunnerdude

40 Posts

Posted - December 08 2012 :  14:52:06  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by ghost of platter


This about as true as the idea that we all could be taller had we just put more effort into growing.

If you disabuse yourself of the weight of ego you will be able to recruit much more of your mind and body to concentrate through the moment you are burdened by the straw that can break the camel's back.

I know what Platt thinks:
Sub 20 minutes is outside of the standard deviation.
Sub 18 minutes is an even farther outlier. (Letís call it talented)
[/quote]

It's not an ego thing. Let's not jump to the personal attacks just yet. Ego would be if I believed I'm a crazy talented runner. I know for a fact I'm not. All my improvement has come from running more. So let's grow up a little bit and address the argument, not the person. Nothing you said actually addressed why working harder won't make you faster.

You're only holding yourself back with your attitude.

run like you mean it.
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bdm

133 Posts

Posted - December 08 2012 :  17:12:06  Show Profile
pacpie-
My story is like mustangs. Started at 29 and loved it. Pure joy, got hooked, obsessed,balls to the wall. Got faster just from more miles. One big factor was losing weight and more weight until you level off. Peaked at the 5k about 5-6 years in, low 17s, peaked at the marathon at about 10-12 years in, sub 3s.

When you have the fire, its easy.And fun.
Good luck.

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runningraby

170 Posts

Posted - December 08 2012 :  20:27:40  Show Profile
Listen to three great people.
1.) Thinks all racing is fun.It's a rare day that he did not love the entire process,even the days results were not great. Mike Platt

2.) Just run and have fun with it, you will learn. Pat Occhino

3.) When you have the fire, it's easy and fun. Brian Murray

You have to have the Passion and Heart and the Love of running at any age and you'll do alright. I always tell my team everyday is a great day to run whether it's snowing,raining or sunny. I just love running in any weather.If I was injuried, I love the feeling of working hard and overcoming adversity and running at top form.
I loved the burning in my lungs on the track or trails, the burning in my quads up the power authority hill it always felt great after being done and the pride of a strong work ethic.You need to be proud of a stong work ethic and passion.You may not know it, some one might be watching and lookig at you as a role model and passion will be share with future generations.

Three great people that i know started later in life and did great.
1.) Henry Sypniewski - Henry set american records. He started at 70 years olds.

2.) Tony Napoli - Tony started racing at 62 years old and set american records.At lunchtime at the Niagara Fall ymca, Tony would run 1.5 miles one way and then turn around and run another 1.5 miles the other way monday thru friday and then run 15 miles at delaware park on saturday.It was great to talk with Tony on the track, by the way it's was 128 laps per mile on the 55 yard track.He had the passion.

3.) Ted Paget - Ted was a swimmer growing up.I think Ted was around fourty when he starting running.I remember running a race at NCCC with Ted in the begining. We were in about fourth or fifth at one mile about 5:40's and thinking he would go away. We hit two mile side by side in 11:30's and still thinking he would go away.That was the closet i got to Ted. He out sprinted me by about twenty yards.In his career he's been in the 16's and 17's. He's abouty sixty two and can still ran in the 19's.

All these six great people had something in common.They have a Passion and Love of running and work ethic second to no one.

Gary Raby Sr.
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TFPIV

1009 Posts

Posted - December 09 2012 :  10:45:55  Show Profile
I never competed in track in High School. Didn't pick up the sport until I was 19 years old.

Tommie P
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JF

2688 Posts

Posted - December 09 2012 :  13:26:45  Show Profile
Didn't pick up the sport until I was 19 years old.

That's pretty old to start.....lol

XXIV
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